Precedence: bulk
Subject: Chalkhills Digest #7-65

          Chalkhills Digest, Volume 7, Number 65

                Saturday, 22 December 2001


                  And you want stuffing?
                      Re: Liz Phair
                      Re: Our Stevie
                     Re: Bah Humbug!
                      In Sweaters...
                     Re: Garden Grass
                     Re: Phil Collins
                  Evil Awful Consumerism
                       D'oh is me!
                     a few questions
                       Deaf School
                      Gotta have pop
     Re: Sweating Sellers... I mean... Oh, nevermind.
                     Musical Gap Trap
                     Re: sweater song
                        Stroke Me
                      Phil and Fripp
         Open Posting re: Disliking Phil Collins
                      Is Phil Evil?
                Re: Phil Collins/ The Crap
                      Dylan 12-22-61


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Kiss her lips and make her glow!


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:40:16 -0000
From: Dom Lawson <>
Subject: And you want stuffing?
Message-ID: <F1C32CD48B89D411AD2B00D0B78EC38904FD3103@MAPPINMAIL01>

Oi! Shut it!

A very Merry (and secular) Christmas to you all...hail Santa!!

Rest in peace - George, Stuart and Chuck...

Lots of love,



Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:57:18 -0800 (PST)
From: The Colonel <>
Subject: Re: Liz Phair
Message-ID: <>

>I dunno, I'm kinda partial to the Liz Phair ad,
>sweater or no sweater
>(I'll take no sweater, thankyouverymuch).

I'm with ya. I have this Ben Folds Five bootleg tape
where Folds introduces the song "All Is Fair" in what
he says is it's alternate pronunciation, "Ah, Liz

Well, I found it amusing...

The Colonel


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:03:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Our Stevie
Message-ID: <>

Interestingly enough, I just completed a transaction with R. Stevie Moore.
I bought a CD from him and he gave me one of his for free! The CD that I
bought just happened to have a cover of "Chalkhills & Children" on it, if
there's anybody out there who collects XTC covers. The CD in question is
"Encyclopediac Two" by Krystyna Olsiewicz, I guess Stevie records &
promotes her.

As for Ben's comment:

<<The Feelies were pop.  The Housemartins were pop.  Sloan and Guided
by Voices are pop.  Not friggin' MARIAH!>>

Strictly speaking, pop only means popular, so I'm afraid that Mariah and
all her naval academy are very much pop. Just not GOOD pop! ;~)

Happy Holidays to all of you, I enjoy this digest immensely!



Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:37:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Eby <>
Subject: Re: Bah Humbug!
Message-ID: <>

Duncan Kimball wrote:

>Seriously though, folks -- have we indeed sunk so
low, has radio become so moribund, that it requires
the exploitation of all this fine music by
advertisers to engender broad public interest in such
artists as Nick Drake?<

Selling music to advertisers worked for Moby.
I say if some ad execs have good taste in music, more
power to them.  Commercial radio is dead and any other
means to reach the masses is justified.
And hell, I've been seing these Gap adds for years,
often enjoying the music, and have yet to enter a

>May we be spared the horror of hearing XTC used as an
advertisment for ANYTHING. If XTC's long odyssey from
the Virgin days to the present are about anything,
it's about a bunch of guys who are more concerned with
making good, true, honest music and being good
craftsmen, than with being a bunch of cynical, greedy
cash-in artists.<

Funny, I learned that XTC were mad about their lack of
profit at Virgin and wanted a better deal.
XTC are definitely concerned about the bottom line.
no, they don't comprimise on their music but they
obviously have a stubborn streak about getting what's
due to them.
Consider this, if it was just about the music, Andy's
wonderful music would have been in James and the Giant
Peach instead of that damn crap by Randy Newman.
Disney wouldn't give enough money, Andy walked and the
movie suffered.

I see no problem with their music being in
commercials.  I think it would be wonderful.  But it
still wouldn't get me in a Gap.


"'Mario, integrity is everything! You keep the money.
We'll live on love--the love we have for sophisticated
head-bobbing music!'" -Mario Speaks, TMBG


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:52:36 -0500
From: Ben Gott <>
Subject: In Sweaters...
Message-ID: <>


My pal and collaborator Ian C Stewart quoth, regarding my comment about Nick
Drake and Supertramp's music both being used in T.V. commercials:

> Jesus H Jones man, let's hope not! Comparing Supertramp to the
> incomparable Nick Drake is sacrilege! Don't make me come over there and
> smack you on the arm with my cardigan! Just because I'm a pacifist doesn't
> mean I won't write a really mean poem about you!!!!! Supertramp. Yeesh.

Now hold on, Ian.  I wasn't suggesting that Supertramp is anywhere near Nick
Drake on the scale of musical wonderfulness!  I was just making the point
that, after that Volkswagen commercial came out, sales of "Way to Blue,"
like, quintupled.  This is a *good* thing.

I've e-mailed Dunks under separate header.  Let the conversations begin!

XTC content: That 12-string guitar on "Thanks for Christmas" is something!



Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:25:05 EST
Subject: Re: Garden Grass
Message-ID: <>

My addled brain cells I'm afraid, Virginia, as other Chalkhillers have
pointed out to my great shame and embarrassment. I was, of course, confusing
Garden of Earthly Delights with Grass. Easy mistake when you come to think of
it - especially when you've been puffing on the subject matter of the latter
for way too many yonks...

The Dook of Cornwall


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:09:03 -0700
From: Landy <>
Subject: Re: Phil Collins
Message-ID: <f05010401b846a3a23345@[]>

>And the fact that he might've had a lucky streak before the dookie hit
>the fan 20 years ago is moot. Maybe he can play the drums, but to me
>it's like arguing that Hitler was a great poet. Hmmm, perhaps he was but
>so what!?
>Yes, I'm saying Phil Collins is as bad as Hitler. Please quote me on that.


No doubt about it.  Phil's music sucks now.  But the comparison to
Hitler (while silly if meant in all seriousness) is not logical.
Phil did make some great music for a long period of time.  He has not
always used his ability toward evil ends.  Early Genesis is among the
most incredible albums of any genre.  Phil was a full contributor to
these albums.  Had Ringo played instead of Phil, Genesis would never
have lasted through Trespass.

Brian Landy, Attorney at Law


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:34:38 -0500
From: m stone <>
Subject: advertising
Message-ID: <>

Duncan Kimball said:

>And for what? To celebrate the music? As if. No, it is used purely as a
means of seducing the listener/viewer into a state of receptivity to the
inexorable, inescapable message: CONSUME - BE SILENT - DIE.  Advertising
is a blight on our culture, its practitioners are parasites. A pox on all
their houses.<

Here, here.  You da Man, DK.


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:34:33 -0700
Subject: Evil Awful Consumerism
Message-ID: <>

Forgive me, Mr. Kimball, but I need to respond to something from your last

You keep hammering on consumerism, and advertising, and selling out, and I
think you probably need to  just get over it.

Here's my take. In this life, there are those who create, and those who
consume (amongst other groups that I'm really not talking about right now,
so there). Some people create "art," and I sometimes get the impression
that the people who consume this art  get a little protective of their own
perceptions of it, like they "own" it. (Yes, I used that awful word
CONSUME. If you don't like consuming, how can you ever manage to actually
buy an XTC record in the first place?)

Anyway, here's a (somewhat bizarre) example of what I'm talking about.
Think of Michael Jordan, the basketball player. "Art" may be too big a word
to use to describe what he does, but he does it, and he had a pretty good
run doing it, before deciding to hang it up. Then, a couple of years later,
he decides that he'd going to give it another go, And what do you hear in
the media? He's going to "tarnish his legacy." In other words, they have
these nice memories of what he did, and they'd like to leave it at that.
But guess what? He is an actual living, breathing human being, who wants to
play the game again. The legacy those people cherish isn't his fricking
problem. He's more concerned with having fun, and making money, and doing
what he wants. Guess what? That's what a lot of us are concerned with, too.
We just don't have an audience begging to differ.

So a musical artist puts out a record, and some years go by, and someone
comes along and offers a bunch of money to use that record to
sell.....whatever. Chances are, this artist might like a new car. Or
something nice for his wife. So he takes the money. In fact, a bunch of
people are throwing around cash in this transaction. The company that's
selling.......whatever is hoping to sell more stuff and make money. The
advertising agency that wants to use the song is getting a piece. And you
know what? People work for these companies, people like you and me. People
that want to get paid. You say: "It is about the act of Giving, only
insofar as you are being seduced into giving your money to Gap, or Coke, or
Microsoft, or whoever is yapping at your at the moment." Guess what? A good
friend of mine works for Coca Cola (ohmygod). And he's not the
personification of evil. In fact, he has a lovely daughter, and he's a
pretty good dad. You go on to say: "God bless the happy, healthy world
where we spend more per annum feeding our pets than on welfare for humans
living in poverty. Merry Xmas, starving millions." So how is that dolorous
fact the fault of advertisers? What, are you saying that people have no
choices in life? That advertising renders them unable to do good? People
have a choice, and the fact that they decide to spend their money on pets
instead of on helping out humans in need reflects poorly on all of us, and
is clearly the fault of each individual person who makes those choices.

In this society, in this economy, we're connected, and sometimes art is
used to grease the wheels. It isn't the fact that radio has become moribund
that's making the songs and artists we love appear in ads. It's time, and
the fact that we're at the age where advertisers want to appeal to us, and
the music we grew up with is the tool they're using. Doesn't anyone
remember the 50's revival in the 70's? Do the math. We've become our
parents. The music of the 50's is now being used to sell adult diapers and
denture cleaner.

Now, Andy and Colin may feel protective of their legacy. But I'm not so
sure. I remember seeing Andy co-host MTV's 120 Minutes back in the day, and
the co-host asked him if he ever listened to his old material. I believe
the phrase Andy used was "No, our turds are for others to chew on." And if
the Beatles or other groups didn't want their songs to be used in a way
they didn't like, they should never have signed the contracts that let it
happen. Sure, a lot of artists got screwed when they signed contracts (like
XTC, for example), and were taken advantage of. But something tells me that
by the time the Beatles were signing away their catalogues, they had a
lawyer or ten telling them what the ramifications were. You say " just
saddens and angers me to hear music I take rather seriously, that (I
believe) was made with serious intent, being used to sell stuff that has
NOTHING to do with music." You know what? It saddens me, too. I can't help
but feel that way, 'cause the music connected to me, and it's in my mind,
forever. I've made my own connections to it, and I don't want to have to
experience some other connection that someone wants me to make. But Andy
and Colin aren't just musicians. They're businessmen, too. When they felt
screwed by their record company, they stopped making albums, 'cause the
business wasn't working out. It wasn't an artistic decision, it was
business. The reality in the music business is, to paraphrase a song by
Tool, that the artists you love sold out long before you ever even heard
their name. Sorry. Even our lads from XTC.

Anyway, the reason I respond like this is that I'm a musician, and I love
it. I haven't made much money from it, and I've never made business the
central idea behind why I'm doing it. But I gotta live, and money helps,
and sometimes the people who create something would like to make a dollar
or two from it and not be dogged about it from an ivory tower by people who
know nothing about their personal situation.

I'll admit, I'm cranky, pig-headed, trivial, rude, and downright stupid.
But I always enjoy your posts, and don't want this message to be as mean as
it probably sounded. I'm an old hippy too, I guess, but I also have to
admit that I play this Great Game you so despise. Sometimes I even enjoy
it. And you play it, too, even if it's hard to swallow the fact that you

Merry Christmas to all, and God Bless Us Every One.


P.S. Supertramp has always sucked. Frank Zappa's solos rule, and besides,
he's dead, so cut the man some slack. And Phil Collins was fine until he
started to suck. He got old. Ho Ho Ho.

"I'm Bugged"


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:03:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Ira Lieman <>
Subject: D'oh is me!
Message-ID: <>

Hi Chalkfolk,

I could have sworn Sheryl Crow appeared twice in that GAP ad ... until
everyone was commenting on how Liz Phair was there. C'mon -- they're almost

As for Ben: An XTC song that could sell sweaters? Snowman, definitely.

And to Aimee Mann, if she's listening, don't think it's selling out to appear
in a commercial. We'd love to see you. And besides, you contributed a song to
the "Songs from Melrose Place" album so I really don't think 10 seconds of a
GAP ad comes close to that. Besides, you would be a great "Wow, who is that
talented individual singing on this GAP ad?" brainteaser for about 95% of the
country. Unless you grew your hair back to '85 in which only 90% would be

-ira, working undercover for the man.


Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:36:34 -1000
From: Jim Smart <>
Subject: a few questions
Message-ID: <a04330107b846b460052c@[]>

Only you wondrous beings can help me out with these:

1. Should I feel guilty for enjoying River of Orchids while driving my car?

2. How much irony is present (in grams) when an atheist writes a song
called "Thanks for Christmas"?

3. Would it be better for an atheist or a believer to write a song
called "Gandalf got run over by a reindeer"?

4. Does Vee Tube eat fish?

These are the things which keep me up at night,



Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:00:21 -0500
From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" <>
Subject: Deaf School
Message-ID: <>

on 12/19/01 1:15 AM, an unidentified flying orator wrote:

> Good Morning Chalkhills,
> I really enjoy Chalkhills,it's one of the few lists I actually
> read. It's a nice vindicator knowing many of you listen(ed) to the
> same stuff I grew up loving..  XTC,Supertramp, Roxy, NRBQ, Kinks
> Genesis and Peter Gabriel...does anyone remember a band of 7-8
> characters known as "DEAF SCHOOL" with the likes of Enrico Cadillac
> Jr., Betty Brite and the Revererend Max Ripple ( on vaccuum cleaner,
> no less). My point?

  Yes, I still have their first two albums on vinyl, sort of like a working
class Roxy Music with a dry sense of humor and three singers(one female;
whatever happened to Bette Bright, anyway?). They had some good and
memorable songs and got a lot of airplay on CHOM-FM in Montreal where I was
in high school at the time. A slight XTC connection: their guitarist Clive
Langer went on to be a pretty successful producer in the 80's, including a
few abortive sides with XTC during the sessions for English Settlement, they
ended up going with Hugh Padgham instead and only one or two songs from the
sessions surfaced as B sides and outtakes.


Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:10:29 -0500
From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" <>
Subject: Gotta have pop
Message-ID: <>

on 12/19/01 1:15 AM, Ben wrote:

> P.S.  Don't you hate the fact that the stupid media has whored the term
> "pop" to describe Britney, Backstreet, and N*sync?  I always get excited
> when I see "In Pop..." on CDNow's website, only to be disappointed by a
> picture of Mariah Carey and her new album.  That is *not* pop.  The Feelies
> were pop.  The Housemartins were pop.  Sloan and Guided by Voices are pop.
> Not friggin' MARIAH!

  Unfortunately, "pop" is what's popular on the top 40 singles chart, which
unfortunately applies to Mariah. It's not a label we can apply willy-nilly
only to music we like that sounds "pop" to us. Of course we can do what we
like anyway, but it won't matter to the millions who are force-fed cake when
all they need is bread.


Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:51:41 -0500
From: William Loring <bloring@TIRERACK.COM>
Subject: Re: Sweating Sellers... I mean... Oh, nevermind.
Message-ID: <>

Duncan wrote:

> Personally I can't wait for the Iggy Pop revival, courtesy of Pal
> Meaty Bites.

Iggy Pop is already enjoying his revival, courtesy of FTD(!) among others.

I'm just waiting for the flower commercial where Iggy appears with a
bouquet of flowers stuffed down his leather hip-hugger pants, while he
fallates a microphone.

William (did I spell "fallates" right? My spell checker didn't have an
entry for it) Loring

p.s. I work in marketing, so I'll take that pox when you've got it ready
for me.


Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:46:48 +0000
From: "Ralph Simpson DeMarco" <>
Subject: Musical Gap Trap
Message-ID: <>

Dear Affiliated Members:

I am shocked that anyone thinks that Supertramp ad has any merits at all.
First off that song, Give a little bit, seems to sound much worse when
anyone else sings it (not that I liked it that much anyway) and the worst
part is that Robbie Robertson (lead guitar, songwriter for The Band !) is in
that ad! AArrrrrggghhh! It really sickens me and to top it off, he sounds
like crap. I can deal with occasional commercials using classic songs like
the Kinks, only because I hope it helps them sell CDs. Someone may hear So
Tired and say, hey that reminds me, I haven't head them in years! But,
mainly it all sucks. If I hear Iggy Pop's Lust for Life used in yet another
commercial (I've counted three so far) I am going to melt my record into

Phil Collins should have stuck to drums, and soundtracks to movies. Anything
else he's done since 1980's Genesis album Duke, has sucked so bad, it makes
me wanna clean my ears out with soap when I hear it.

I must confess: Last year I said that Wasp Star did not suffer for lack of
Dave. I was wrong - sorry - but everytime I listen to it, I miss him...
sniff, that album could have been great, but alas, it is only good.

Merry X-mass one and all. I will miss George Harrison.... he was a true
gentle soul.

Aside from While My Guitar..., Something, and Here Come the Sun, what are
your top Three Favourite Harrison songs? Mine are: 1) I Want To Tell You
(love that dissonant piano chord!), 2) Blue Jay Way (underrated and the much
neglected) 3) Savoy Truffle (love that horn section and the self-reference)



Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:49:14 -0000
From: "Adrian Ransome" <>
Subject: Re: sweater song
Message-ID: <001e01c189a0$2ba39cc0$249a7ed4@atidy>

Ben Gott pondered what XTC song could sell sweaters.
Well, with a little re-writing we could have:

Jumpers from Gomorrah
I am fashion-less+ACEAIg-


+ACI-Ah well, that's this Pullover+ACI-

or even River of Orchids re-written+ADs-

+ACI-Put your Caaaar-digan on+ACEAIg-

Happy holidays to all you chalkers+ACE-


Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:45:20 EST
Subject: Stroke Me
Message-ID: <>

Long time no post but something is troubling me.
 Am I the only one who thinks The Strokes are good enough to get a mention
  Jayzus, That album is good. Excellent even. They pulled an XTC on me in
that I cant get them out of my head. Eleven great tunes. Lou Reed meets The
Clash. Something for everybody. And theyre all around 21 years old.
  If anyone mentioned them earlier, sorry.
     My friend saw King Crimson  here in Philly earlier this month. He said
it was awesome. Fripp went off in another world with his guitar. He also said
it was scary that A. Belew was the least talented. That was his abridged

         Waiting on new stuff, Roger
 p.s. Does anyone know if Harry made it on The Simpsons yet?


Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:58:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: andrew sneddon <>
Subject: Phil and Fripp
Message-ID: <>

Hello my darklings.  Phil Collins has played with
Fripp on a Charlie Drake novelty single penned by
Peter Gabriel in his post-Genesis cabbage patch
period.  Not exactly Crimson I think.

I have asked for some spanking new reissues for xmas,
here's hoping.

Right, time to remember my forum password.

Merry Christmas


Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:22:49 -0500
From: Tony Picco <>
Subject: Open Posting re: Disliking Phil Collins
Message-ID: <>

Okay, I don't like Phil Collins. Neither do I like Billy Joel or Fleetwood
Mac, and many others. But obviously, their music serves a function for many
people. No one is holding a gun to your head and making you listen. (At
least I hope not.) And with Walkmans and Discmans and iPod and whatever, you
don't even have to subject yourself to their music in stores and shopping

So why do you spend so much time vilifying these people? No one sets out to
make mediocre music, or mediocre art. Why not spend more time enjoying what
you like, and let the other stuff fall by your wayside. Life is short. Focus
on the positive. You'll never get to feel better about yourself by tearing
other people down...

Happy New Year, all!

Tony Picco
XTC fan since 1978!


Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:12:35 -0500
Subject: Is Phil Evil?
Message-ID: <>

Ian said, and I quote:
>Yes, I'm saying Phil Collins is as bad as Hitler. Please quote me on that.

Perhaps more disturbing is the fact that if you look at the back cover
of Brand X's "Moroccan Roll" you'll notice in the group photo that Phil
bares a striking resemblance to Charles Manson.  As Robert Plant once
sang, "And it makes me wonder..."

I guess I fall into the camp of I'd rather not hear an XTC song used
to sell sweaters, but if someone said I had to choose a song or they
would make me listen to side one of "No Jacket Required," I'd pick
"Dear God" because it seems like an XTC song that would never end up
as a music track on a commercial selling sweaters (or trousers for
that matter).

-Todd J.


Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:39:53 -0600
From: "Joe Funk" <>
Subject: Re: Phil Collins/ The Crap
Message-ID: <005401c18af6$858eca00$15a8343f@user>

From: Ian C Stewart:
>Ehh, I think that might be the drugs. I don't recall Phil ever sitting
>in with Fripp etc.

Well, you probably never heard Fripp's "Exposure"..  Phil is all
over this one..  "Breathless" is a CLASSIC!, IMO..

..And Phil's work with Eno?  He originally got involved with
Eno as payment for Eno's work on "The Lamb Lies Down
On Broadway"...

>This got me thinking: what XTC song could sell sweaters?  The great thing
>about The Gap's current campaign is that these performers capture a real
>magic .

Are you kiddin' me?  There's absolutely nothing F#$%ing magical about
these F$%@ing Gap commercials..  I have seen grown men who'd rather
pull their own heads off than watch a F#%$ing Gap commercial!!!
And if XTC did a F$#@ing Gap commercial, I'd have to nail their heads
to a coffee table...  This is American Corporate Commercialization at
it's worst!!!....  Plus, the clothes SUCK!

"Give a little bit..
Give a little of your cash to us...
..See the clone with the empty eyes
He's such a nerd, and so despised"


Check out 3 tunes from our new CD at:
Two Sheds Website:


Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:24:33 -0500 (EST)
From: (R. Stevie Moore)
Subject: Dylan 12-22-61
Message-ID: <>


The Minnesota Hotel Tape!!!

Young Bob's most vibrant recordings!
(On his way back to Hibbing after recording first Columbia album for
John Hammond and generally conquering Robert Shelton and NYC.)

Fri Dec 22 1961

          Recorded by Tony Glover at the apartment of Bonnie Beecher,

         1. Candy Man (trad., arr Reverend Gary Davis)
            2. Baby Please Don't Go (Big Joe Williams)
            3. Hard Times In New York Town (trad.)
   4. Stealin' (trad., arr Memphis Jug Band)
            5. Poor Lazarus (trad.)
            6. I Ain't Got No Home (Woody Guthrie)
            7. It's Hard To Be Blind (trad., arr Reverend Gary Davis)
      8. Dink's Song (trad., arr by John & Alan Lomax)
      9. Man Of Constant Sorrow (trad., arr Bob Dylan)
           10. Naomi Wise (trad.)
           11. Wade In The Water (trad.)
           12. I Was Young When I Left Home (trad.) (recently released
with L&T)
           13. In The Evening (Brownie McGhee)
    14. Baby Let Me Follow You Down (Eric von Schmidt)
           15. Sally Girl (Woody Guthrie)
           16. Gospel Plow (trad.)
           17. Long John (trad.)
           18. Cocaine (trad.)
           19. See That My Grave Is Kept Clean (Blind Lemon Jefferson)
           20. Ramblin' Round (Woody Guthrie)
           21. VD Blues (Woody Guthrie)
           22. VD Waltz (Woody Guthrie)
           23. VD City (Woody Guthrie)
           24. VD Gunner's Blues (Woody Guthrie)
           25. Black Cross (Lord Buckley)
   26. The Story Of East Orange, New Jersey (monologue)

           Mono recording, approximately 75 minutes.

N O W !!

It rates up there with Elvis on Sun.

[xtc malcontent: LP 1, track 6]

Happy Xmas
(moore is over)


End of Chalkhills Digest #7-65

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