Precedence: bulk
Subject: Chalkhills Digest #6-247

         Chalkhills Digest, Volume 6, Number 247

                  Sunday, 20 August 2000


                    XTC for Beginners?
                       Re: Concerts
                       Re: Optigan
                     Concerts & Codas
                       My concerts
                      pro & concerts
                    Re: blah blah blah
             5,000 fingers of Andy Partridge
                     Re: My concerts
                   A night at the Opera
           Concerts I saw, WS after some weeks
                      More Concerts
                      Concert Faves
               Open ideas....closed minds.
                         Re: misc
                 Re: Samples, schmamples
       While my guitar gently plays 32nd note runs


Please, no abortion or gun control debates on Chalkhills, thanks.

    To UNSUBSCRIBE from the Chalkhills mailing list, send a message to
    <> with the following command:


    For all other administrative issues, send a message to:


    Please remember to send your Chalkhills postings to:


    World Wide Web: <>

    The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors.

    Chalkhills is compiled with Digest 3.7b (John Relph <>).

Friends and lovers that you knew so well / will never take your calls.


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 09:44:31 +1000
From: "Clifford Smith" <>
Subject: XTC for Beginners?
Message-ID: <001101c0096e$47a62fe0$290ffea9@dracon>

If you wanted to make a CD introducing XTC to the unenlightened, what would
the Tracklisting be?


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:40:31 -0500
From: Dave Hughes <>
Subject: Re: Concerts
Message-ID: <>

First Concert: Bread (Pershing Auditorium, Lincoln, NE, 1971?)
Best Concert: Any Richard Thompson concert - solo, duo, or with electric band!
Most Disappointing Concert: John Entwistle Band (Lincoln, NE 1998) - too short!
Why Did I Go?: KC and the Sunshine Band (Springfield, MO late '70s early '80s)
Dream Concert: XTC (duh!) or The Who with Keith Moon
Dave Hughes
Host of "Late in the Evening" on Nebraska Public Radio
Saturday evenings 11 pm to 1 am Central
Live stream available at


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 10:07:39 +1000 (EST)
From: Mark <>
Subject: Re: Optigan
Message-ID: <>

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:00:08 CDT
From: "Megan Heller" <>
Subject: Optiganlly Mine
Message-ID: <>

>>Kevin Diamond has is on the same wavelength as myself--

>>Here's a question. I've been getting into this group called
Optiganally Yours which, oddly enough, makes all it's music with
Optigans, (Optical Organs) which basically, from what I've read, are
exactly like what you guys are calling Mellotrons. What is the
difference between the two? The only thing I can think of is that I
know that the Optigan wasn't very well made, because it was made
mostly using Mechanics, as opposed to Electronics. Are Mellotrongs
just Electronically made Optigans?<<

Wow!  I just heard Optiganally Yours for the first time last night, on
a compilation I'm reviewing (I almost posted asking people about them,
but chose instead to ask about Self, also on the comp).  From what I
heard excellent stuff.  Anyway, as for your question, I'm not sure,
although I know that the Optigan was actually a children's toy (as is
the Talentmaker, their instrument of choice for their second album,
apparently).  Have you been on ?  If not, there's lots
of information, both about the Optigan and Optiganally Yours.

coincidences abound! <<

Sorry to post twice... I'll remember to read the whole thing next time.

Anyway, here's a URL:

Also, a free (shameless) plug for one of my favourite bands: Rob Crow from
Heavy Vegetable plays with one of these with Optiganally Yours. (Heavy
Vegetable is now defunct, but if you can get a copy of "frisbie", clasp it
to your bosom with both hands and don't let go. He's now in "thingy",
which is also cool, but a bit more depressing.)

He's great.


sex sleep eat drink dream
	-- king crimson


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:16:03 -0700
From: Ed Kedzierski <>
Subject: Concerts & Codas
Message-ID: <>

Oh, why not...

First Concert: Queen, Pacific Colliseum, Vancouver, 1980 (?) - a friend won
a radio contest for tickets and took me, we weren't fans, but as a first
glance at a big stadium excess-fest, it was a good choice in retrospect.
Most Satisfying (least disappointing): Elvis Costello & the Attractions,
1996 at Bumbershoot in Seattle. Left me emotionally drained & testy, but it
was worth it. He played for what seemed like hours, played more things that
I wanted to hear than I've ever felt the right to expect at any concert, and
closed with a rendition of "I Want You" that made me feel like I'd been
beaten up (but in a good way).
Most Disappointing: the Animals reunion tour, sometime in the 80s. should
have been fun - this was the original line up, Chas Chandler, Alan Price and
all, rather than just the king of the name-droppers with some session hacks,
but it was in the godawful UBC War Memorial gym, one of the worst places to
see a concert in Vancouver. The power kept failing, and after about the
third time that the lights & sound cut out, the king of the name-droppers
refused to come back on stage in spite of the very visible coaxing of the
rest of the band.
Most seen (not including friends/local bands): tie -  the Kinks - 5 times,
Robyn Hitchcock 5 times (3 solo, 2 w/Egyptians)
Bad Date Concert: Siouxsie & the Banshees, 1986. the band was fine, but my
date fainted while we were standing there watching, scaring the shit out of
me. (she turned out to be fine, though she did break up with me later on by
the highly charming method of starting to see someone else without being
bothered to mention it to me until I ran into them at a bar one night...)
Most surprisingly memorable: the Cure, 1985. I went knowing nothing of their
stuff except for "Love Cats", and I walked out of the concert able to
recognize every song that I had heard that night, something that has not
happened when seeing a new or unfamiliar band before or since. Picked
through my friend's Cure albums later that night finding all the songs I'd
Most Obligatory: Paul McCartney ('89, '90, something like that). Had to see
one of the fabs live, and he could certainly be depended upon to give a good
show. I'm glad I went and all, though the slightly rapped-up "PS Love Me Do"
medley thing was a bit of a cringer, as was the point where his piano
platform started rotating during the "round and round" part of "Fool on the
Most significant to my social life: Shriekback, Commodore Ballroom, 1985
(Oil & Gold tour). This was the first time that my friends and I went out
while trying to be "cool" in some way, and actually managed to more-or-less
pull it off. In the months since the Cure show mentioned above I'd been
growing, dyeing, crimping, spraying and otherwise goth-ing up my hair and
dressing accordingly. The Shriekback show was the first big public field
test of the new me, and I was stunned when it seemed to work. We drank,
danced, met girls... people forget what a good band Shriekback actually were
- Oil & Gold's a classic. This kicked of a two year period of going out
every night of the week, making up for a teenagerhood of cloistered
geekiness. And I can at least say that I've seen one former XTC member on

XTC content: well, obviously, I could kick myself, as they came through town
more than once, but I was always a total chickenshit about trying to get
into places when I was underage, and I only recall them playing the
Commodore (I could be wrong, but that's what I seem to remember), which is
generally no minors.

I recall a girl who was a friend of a friend complaining at a party about
the cancelled show (you know, the cancelled ES tour show that every town
had), and she must have met Andy when they'd been here last because the one
thing she kept repeating was how she and her friend kept trying to tell the
bouncer/guard/whatever "but we know Andy Partridge!", which, in light of
what I know now, was useless anyway as he wouldn't even have reached town,
having fled the West Coast after the California incident. Whether they were
yelling at some poor bastard at the closed & quiet venue where the gig was
scheduled, or a desk person at the hotel they'd been the last time, I have
no idea. I would have grilled her more, but for one thing I barely knew and
only mildly liked them then (I wasn't the sad fanboy I am now; in fact, I
think that this conversation might have been where I first learned that Andy
Partridge was the name of "the guy from XTC" in the first place), and I was

Oh, and I've come to really love that Wrapped in Grey coda. There's a late
Beatles/early solo ex-Beatles (or as Song Stories says "Badfinger-ish")
quality to it that nicely offsets the (as Dan W. put it) "Beach Boy-ish"
vocals and vaguely Philly-ish strings and piano sound of the rest of the
song. To me, it's no blot - it turns expectations on their heads, it's the
flaw that perfects... It adds a certain balance. Then again, I actually
don't mind the "shave and a haircut at the end of the sonata" idea, so that
probably says something about me... (and that's not a flame, I'm just
disagreeing; it's quite possible to disagree without anger, and it gets
pretty tiresome when people keep referring to mild, non-hostile
disagreements as "flames".)

Ed K.


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:47:20 -0700
From: Craig Vreeken <>
Subject: My concerts
Message-ID: <>

First concert:  Van Morrison, Alhambra Theater-Sacramento, 1973

Best concert:  Bob Marley & The Wailers, Freeborn Hall, UC Davis, 1979

Runners Up:  Pink Floyd, Hughes Stadium, Sacramento, 1988; XTC, The Stone,
San Francisco, 1980; Steely Dan, Peter Gabriel, Oakland Colliseum, 1992,
Sacramento Valley Ampitheatre, 2000

Most Disappointing Concert: Al Green, Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento, 2000

Dream Concert:  XTC and Brian Wilson
Craig Vreeken


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:18:10 EDT
Subject: pro & concerts
Message-ID: <>

with no further ado

 First concert: POP 82 (headliner: Squeeze, with Split Enz, Third World, Bush
Tetras and, as the absolute opening act, an obscure English band called Duran
Duran) Mann Music Center Philadelphia 1982
 Best concert: Costello and Nieve, Tower Theater, Philadelphia 1999
 Best concert Runner-up: Todd Rundgren/TR-i NWO tour, Park West, Chicago 1993
 Best concert 2nd R-u: 10,000 Maniacs/John & Mary, the Tralf, Buffalo 1991
 Most disappointing concert: Tears for Fears, Tower Theater 1985
 "What the hell was I thinking?" concert: Van Halen, Carrier Dome, Syracuse
 Most inexplicable concert:  Deanna Kirk, Tin Angel, Philadelphia 1998
 "Wish I'd been there" concert: what do you think?



Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:23:45 EDT
Subject: Re: blah blah blah
Message-ID: <>

In a message dated 08/14/2000 1:18:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<> writes:

>  Its always strange to me
>  the people that believe in "pro life" but also believe in the death penalty.

Or people who believe life for baby birds starts in the egg...but life for
humans start at birth.   It goes both ways.

         /\-^/\^/\-^/\^-/\ Tom </;o) /\-^/\^/\-^/\^-/\


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:38:18 EDT
Subject: 5,000 fingers of Andy Partridge
Message-ID: <>

> he 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T".   [relevance:  one of Andy
>  P's faves, about a monstrous "Dr. T" [Vincent Price?]

Actually, it was Hans Conreid who played the role.

By the way for those folks that are interested Marshall Crenshaw's first
album has been re-released with 10 bonus tracks (demos, live tunes, etc.) by
Rhino. Crenshaw is an under rated singer/songwriter looked to break through
and didn't.



Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:18:06 -0400
From: "Brian" <>
Subject: Re: My concerts
Message-ID: <007301c0098c$195a65c0$3e0affd1@Brian>


First Concert:  The Florida World Music Festival, 1978
Hoochie... Brownsville Station... Frank Marino & Mahogany Rush... Cheap
Trick... Aerosmith... Ted Nugent.
I hated it.

Best Concert:  Oingo Boingo at Jannus Landing, St. Pete Florida... I don't
remember the date.
I was close enough to Elfman to touch him.

Best Concert Runner-Up:  Either of the other two times I saw Oingo Boingo.

What Was I thinking?!:  The Rockets and Point Blank, Bayfront Center, St.
Oh!  know what I was thinking!  I got laid that night... ;-)

Wish I'd Been There:  Oingo Boingo's farewell Halloween show in Los Angeles.
But I do have the video and the CD.

-Brian Matthews


Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:25:24 -0500
From: "Marcus Padgett" <>
Subject: A night at the Opera
Message-ID: <>

First concert (almost): The Guess Who - 1974. This was a big deal in Alaska
because we only had about one concert per decade. That afternoon I ran 10
miles, scarfed some McDonald's, and ended up spending the whole concert
hurling in the parking lot.

Best concert: Weather Report - 1977 at the Auditorium in Chicago. Jaco was
the man. The only thing better than a creative virtuoso is 5 creative
virtuosos. They let people smoke in here? What's that funny smell....just
like the one from my sister's room....

Worst concert: Dead or Alive 1986 at the Riviera. (friend is working the
door so it's free - otherwise no way). The guy with the patch keeps dropping
his microphone - but the vocals keep going. We go to the sound board and see
a DAT tape running. And he had these two leather boys dancing with toy
guitars through the whole show. The highlight of the evening was walking
down the stairs to the bathrooms, watching the crowd, and trying to guess if
they were going to turn towards the men's or women's when they reached the
bottom of the stairs!

Most Disgusting concert: The Cramps - 1983 at Tut's. A friend of mine was
doing sound, and after the show he threw the singers microphone away and
charged the cost of it to the band. I'll leave the details to your

Worst experience at a concert: uh....can't commit this to the public record.

Worst concert date: Some local band. My fairly new girlfriend informs me
that she is going home with the band's manager, but that I shouldn't take it
personally...It's just that her "destiny" is somehow tied to the music
business. ooookaaaayyyy....

Concert perseverance award: Peter Gabriel (Womad) - 1994. After a full day
of standing in line to get 2nd row center seats and sitting through 6 or 7
bands, my girlfriend offers to make a beer run (yet another beer run). A
long time passes and there is no sign of her. Finally, just as Gabriel comes
out, she arrives with a large bandage on her face. She appears to be in
great pain and bleeding profusely, but insists that she is ok. After the
show is over, she tells me that she fell, got treated at the 1st aid tent,
and needed to go to the emergency room for stitches. She wasn't about to
miss the show... and she even came back with the beer - jumbo size! After
that I had to marry her. Now if she just liked XTC......

Before they were famous #1: Red Hot Chili Peppers - 1983 at Medusa's, a
local juice bar. They played the entire show with paper bags over their

Before they were famous #2: Band-o-rama at the Avalon/Vic. A friend tells me
there is a cool band in the other room, so I walk across and watch Smashing
Pumpkins with about 20 other people.

Most surreal concert experience: Hamer guitar jam 1984 at the Limelight.
Stevie Stevens was in the dressing room with an entourage of about 12 people
that huddled around him wherever he went. As he walked around, it looked
like a rugby scrum with little Stevie as the ball. Before the show Rick
Nielson was off in a corner pacing and talking to himself. During the show
he started throwing the guitars (provide by Hamer) into the audience while
the President of Hamer was fighting his way through the crowd yelling
"Nooooooooo!!!" After the show, I hung out with John Mellancamp's band, who
totally dissed him, explaining how they would have to show him where to put
his fingers on the guitar.


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 13:56:22 +0200
From: Bergmaier Klaus <>
Subject: Concerts I saw, WS after some weeks
Message-ID: <41E0B760C85AD3119BE200E0291B6EE5057C01@NTSRV>

Dear all!

Here are the big concerts I saw in Vienna/Austria (only some with a

1984: Queen
1987: Genesis (I swore not to go into a stadium again), support: Paul Young
(the one still alive)
1988: Level 42
1989: Depeche Mode
1989: Tina Turner (what was I thinking? Someone talked me into it. It was
shit because we didn't hear much and it was in a stadium again)
1992: Jazz-Festival with Oregon and Maceo Parker as my personal highlights
(Wiesen near Vienna)
1993: Depeche Mode
1993: Jazz-Festival with Lester Bowie and Steve Coleman as my personal
highlights (Wiesen near Vienna)
1993: Paul Mc Cartney
1995: Birth Control. I played support with my group at the time "Ozone", a
combination of Dream Theater and Uriah Heep. I was allowed to use Birth
Control's legendary 1960s Hammond organ plus Leslie. A great night. BC were
nice guys.
1998: Yes (I waited for autographs. They all signed with the exeption of
thweir new keyboardist. I was pleased to meet a musician eye to eye who
played with John Lennon and George Harrison - it is of course their drummer
Alan White!)
2000: King Crimson were cancelled!

I saw hundreds of other concerts. I ran a jazzclub for a few years. We had
"Defunkt", Anthony Braxton, Albert Mangelsdorff, Allan Praskin and others
playing. I played more than 100 concerts myself. The last one on August 15th

I wish I had seen (or will see) XTC, the Beatles, John Lennon, George
Harrison, Ringo, Squeeze, Primus, King's X, 10CC, Ultravox and Frank Zappa.

I listened to WS after some weeks of not doping so. It does even more to me
now. Still my favourite track on it: Joe, closely followed by TWATM. My
girlfriend asked "Is that Sting?", when she heard "You and the Clouds...". I
told her, it was something much better. That was the first time she ever got
to like some of the stuff I listen to. Usually she doesn't, although she is
a musician herself...

Best wishes


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 23:31:00 +1000
From: "Trevor Matthews" <>
Subject: More Concerts
Message-ID: <001201c009e1$b7c05260$30bd36cb@trevor>
Organization: Grand Order of Beebuckles

Hi Chalkhill's children,

Just thought I'd tell you about some of the concerts I've seen...

1st concert- The Beatles, in 1964, I was 16 yrs old, they played in Sydney
at the old Stadium (where they also had wrestling and boxing - not that
night though!).
Ringo had tonsilitis and was replaced by the drummer from Georgie Flame's
band. I was disappointed they didn't sound real good, maybe it was the sound
system or maybe the screaming girls. Anyway just seeing them at that time
was enough!!

Most enjoyed - The Stones in 1966 in Sydney were just great - They sounded
fantastic and there were no screamers.

Sorry I missed it- Little Feat were here in 1975 & I didn't go. Been kicking
myself ever since.

At the time of Black Sea, I saw XTC play at the Family Inn at Rydalmere,
Sydney. I was already a fan by then, but seeing them at time made Black Sea
my favourite XTC album and still is. Andy was manic and they sounded pretty
tight, they did Generals & Majors, Towers of London and Sgt Rock that I
particularly recall.

Best Concert- The Cure, Early 80's Manly Vale. They just blew me away they
were so good I saw them every time they visited Oz ( 3 times in the 80's ).

Others I've seen and enjoyed, The Late Ian Dury( talk about manic) and the
Blockheads, Elvis C., Kraftwerk, Talking Heads, Split Enz, Devo, Bowie, Neil
Young, Beach Boys,Eric Clapton,Mental As Anything, Santana, Echo and the
Bunnymen. I saw Simple Minds a couple of times they were good too. There
must be others that I've forgotten, that  happens when you get older.

I like blues as well, but I won't burden you with that list too, except to
mention that  I saw Buddy Guy (Iain, I think it was earlier than '92) and he
was amazing - he did a Hendrix, he played his guitar with his teeth, his
dick, his toes and other parts of the body.



Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:50:55 -0400
From: "Robbie Beck" <>
Subject: Concert Faves
Message-ID: <000e01c00a16$c994bbe0$>

Ok, since it seems like no one was lucky enough to have done it yet, I'll
add my two cents worth - I am among the profoundly lucky.  I saw XTC live at
the Agora Ballroom in Atlanta in 1981.  Needless to say, it was everything
any fan of XTC might have expected it to be - humorous, energetic,
intelligent, enlightening, passionate, and a downright blast!  I don't claim
to have nearly the number of intact brain cells I once had, but that is an
experience I'll never forget.  Rumors of Andy's stage fright were already
circulating and my friends and I knew this might be a rare chance to see him
perform - we had no idea it would be our ONLY chance.  I'm glad we made the
3.5 hour trip down from Asheville, NC, where we were in college.  It was a
trip we were to make many more times in various mental states.

The Agora was a great place for music - kind of like the House of Blues is
now, but with none of the pretense.  I was lucky enough to see quite a few
shows there - King Crimson (Discipline), Talking Heads (More Songs with just
the original 4, and later Remain in Light with Adrian Belew), Black Uhuru,
Kid Creole, John McLaughlin (although the best McLaughlin show was at
another place in Atlanta called the Great Southeastern Music Hall, with
Shakti - 2 times - absolutely religious experience), among others.  The only
show I have seen to rival Shakti in intensity was a recent show at the
Barbican in London by Ravi Shankar.  First time I have ever cried during a
performance.  Purely emotional and spiritual. He is 80 years old and plays
this giant sitar with incredible sensitivity, and blazing speed. (George
Harrison sat 4 rows in front of us, so I've actually seen a Beatle, too!)
But I digress. Needless to say, XTC were right in their element in this
intimate and friendly environment, and if Andy Partridge has stage fright,
he exhibited none of its symptoms that night.  They flat out rocked and
seemed to having the times of their lives. So did the audience.  I loved the
band with Dave Gregory (just think what he might have done with the guitar
breaks on Wasp Star!) and Terry Chambers - undoubtedly their best drummer
ever.  Too bad they couldn't hold it together.  Where is Chambers now?

Most recent let down was seeing King Crimson at Shepherd's Bush Empire the
week after Ravi Shankar.  I have seen them several times and have
appreciated their music for years, but something about this performance just
turned me off completely.  They had no soul.  Just 4 very good musicians
going through the motions - masturbating.  It was boring and I left before
it was over.  Extremely disappointing, and I haven't listened to the new
album since.

Having been around quite a while, I have been witness to quite a few legends
- Led Zeppelin, Clapton (Pete Townsend and Keith Moon made an unscheduled
walk-on and they jammed to "Crossroads"), The Who, Yes, (all in their 70's
heydays), Iggy Pop, The Replacements, Miles Davis (6 times), The Residents
(13th Anniversary Show and Wormwood), Johnny Thunders, Nick Cave, King Sunny
Ade, The Dead Kennedys, The Cramps, James Brown (while he was young enough
to still do a good split), Roxy Music, Lou Reed, Fripp (on his solo
Frippertronics tour at a Peaches Record Store in Atlanta with about 40
people in attendance), Bowie, Peter Tosh - you get the idea.  I have been
very lucky.

I have but two real regrets:  I never got to see Bob Marley, and to date I
have never seen Brian Eno perform.  I'm not giving up on Eno.


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 23:49:24 -0400
From: "Roger Fuller" <>
Subject: Open ideas....closed minds.
Message-ID: <005501c00a59$a2764180$da7fd63f@hp-customer>

From: "Michael Versaci" <>
Subject: Do Not Accept Any Checks From The Following People


 This can be done at the
"post" level, or at the "poster" level.Example I.  "Post" Level:Chris
>When it comes to gun control, you have two realistic choices, disarm
everybody or allow everybody concealed weapons.<

>While some of his observations are worthy of a response, this one clearly

Why not? I have no idea what this is all about, but I'm open-minded, and
everybody is a worth a listen. You have obviously thrown out a red herring
by attacking the original poster by attempting to censor him by advocating
that others ignore him. Speak up- what's your explanation for your
non-position, please? Is the free exchange of ideas, even about XTC and its
relationship to the politics that Andy P. injects himself into with his
music (although he steadfastly refuses to vote...) something that makes you
uncomfortable? It sure doesn't bother Andy to talk about issues.....

>No, I won't explain why, because if you can't see it, my explanation
>won't help.

Obviously your argument is so superior that us poor benighted serfs would
not grasp the logic of it, but why don't you run it by us, and see if it
survives the light of day. That's part of the exchange of ideas in a free
society. Try it- you'll like it!

Why am I suddenly reminded of Richard Nixon's secret plan to end the war in
Viet Nam "I'm sorry- I can't tell you- it wouldn't be secret anymore" he
advocated in his election campaign back when I was a boy? His plan turned
out to be a crock.....

>Moreover, I would  be in violation of my own proposition.

And that would be?.....

>Example II.  "Poster" Level:You *KNOW* who I'm talking about...

>Just ignore him.
Michael Versaci

Yeah... sure, Mike, uh, whatever you say. (must) know better than
us- I guess(?) :^)

Ah,'s good to be back. Loving "Wasp Star"- and freedom of speech
(void where prohibited by law!).

Roger Fuller

"Liberty and justice for all... who agree with me"


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 20:43:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Radios In Motion <>
Subject: Re: misc
Message-ID: <383369578.966732231470.JavaMail.root@web193-iw>

Mike Say's:

"- Hey "Radios in Motion", did you ever consider that when you say things
like another person is "quite ignorant" or they're a "smart-a** little kid",
that might just be a little inflammatory and insulting?"

Then he say's:

"Your posts have fallen into the "automatic page-down" category, friend."

I say:

Obviously you did not "page down" because you read into my response.  Go
read his message before bashing me.  I responded.  He said ignorent things.
I have been called out when I said ignorent things and I took it back or
learned from a mistake.  So, I pointed out that he was acting ignorent.  If
you read his post, he was acting like a little kid plain and simple.  Im not
sure how old he is, but I can tell by his response he is under 18.  Anyway,
that is all I have to say on this subject.  Oh, but you did not read it
right?  You paged down!


Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:01:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Radios In Motion <>
Subject: Re: Samples, schmamples
Message-ID: <380348541.966733263850.JavaMail.root@web193-iw>

I agree 100% JH3 and you must have misread my message.  I don't mind loops
as much as some of you, but at the same point, I know they are not the same
thing as a sampled second of time from an instrument.  My point was that
most rap groups (80%) do not use loops from other groups.  If they do use
loops of anything, its something they programmed themselves.  The only rap
that does get mainstream success however is rap that uses loops of other
peoples music.  Which is why that is the only stuff you hear.

If we are going to blame anyone, blame radio stations.  They hear something
familiar and put it on the air but when people like "The Roots" (A full live
Hip-Hop group that plays Jazz) plays real instruments, they get no airplay
on rap/pop radio.  As I said, if you investigate it further you will find
that most rap groups don't just use loops of other peoples music, only the
popular radio played groups do, which are less then 10% of the Hip-Hop

Out of the 80% that does not use samples only as their music, about 60% of
them use little no no sampling on their albums.  Most rap artists you don't
see with live bands because they tend to be hired musicians.  They press the
live music onto records and have a DJ spin it.  However, a lot of groups
like The Roots, De La Soul and many others use live bands at their show.

I don't want to be a hypocrite, but one of my favorite songs is "Machines
Aint Music" by Mojo Nixon.  You can get it on Napster if you have Napigator.
I don't think its available anymore.  It's mostly talking about Techno
though.. Its a funny song.  If more country sounds like Mojo Nixon, than I
guess I am now a country fan!


Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:01:54 EDT
Subject: While my guitar gently plays 32nd note runs
Message-ID: <>

That Jefferson Airplane reunion tour was '89, not '79.  Grace and her panda
And I meant Rodriquez when I was dropping Spanish composer names. The piece
    of course was the Concerto De Aranjuez.  El senor momento.
Also - someone at work believes that the quote I attributed to Casey Stengel,
    the 90% of the game being half mental, was actually Yogi Berra.  Anyone
know    for sure?   Zen American!
Saddest XTC song for me - Rook
Alright, one more time and I'm outta here on this one.  Promise.

>Well, got to disagree Kingstune. George was quite a good guitar player. His
>slide work was always memorable

I never said he wasn't!  Re-read my post.  I said "I adore George's playing".

Context, please!  What I'm saying is that he couldn't play that flamenco
lick.  No shame in that.

>Harrison's solo work and later Beatle albums have some marvelous moments on
>them. I don't doubt with enough practice George could pick it up (after all,
>McCartney did on Flaming Pie and a couple of other albums).

First, you have no idea the amount of practice involved.  I'm serious!  And
even if he was going too, he would have done it and would have continued
displaying that newly achieved ability.  He hasn't.  Second, I haven't heard
Flaming Pie yet, but I'll bet Paul did not, not like the player on the
sample.  I will attempt to hear it, to be fair, but....

>George's early solos are simple because he was told to play what George
>Martin would pluck out on the piano. He had little say as to what he could
>play then. Martin's main concern was making sure the solo was short, sweet
>and melodic. Complexity wasn't the the point. Around Help & Rubber Soul
>George finally got his say as to what he would play (although if Paul wrote
>it or the bulk of it, anyway, he would frequently suggest solos to George as

Don't tell me you read this somewhere.  Good Lord!  Your first point is
erroneous, for starters.  A lot of George's early stuff was NOT simple.
Listen to 'Till There Was You.  I still haven't figured out that dominant.
Very sophisticated.  Also, George was a *rock* guitarist, steeped in the
older rockabilly traditions of the fifties.  You can hear Chuck, Carl, Scotty
Moore, Gene Vincent and so on in his early solos.  George Martin did NOT bang
THAT stuff out on a piano and tell George to play like that!  He knew better
to stay out of the way there, my friend.  Besides, as proof of the pudding,
just listen to George play on the old live Hamburg recordings and the Decca
tapes, pre Martin.  I don't hear much editing in the transition.  I think the
Beatles were quite succesful as their own musical editors by the time Martin
started with them.  And yes, George did open up more on the later albums, but
the music was changing and their abilities were maturing.  As for Paul, truth
be known that he would often play his own leads when he wanted something
specific.  George had to bear some dictating, but he got his fair share of
playing in.  BTW, I think that the lead on Something is one of the most
beautiful leads ever recorded on a rock record.  You can bet Paul didn't tell
him what to play there.

I understand what you good people are trying to say and it's very noble to
stick up for our heros, but to me this is as clear cut as anything I've
gotten into here.  George was a rock player.  His style morphed a little from
rockabilly to Claptonesque, but it was still rock, based on blues.  It
involved hammer-ons, pull-offs, bends, double-stop slides and all sorts of
diddly diddlies involving the *left* hand.  It's VERY different from styles
where each note is articulated with the *right* hand, whether with a pick or
with the fingers.  That type of playing requires enormous amounts of
practice, and a continued dedication to maintain.  Classical and flamenco
players do it with alternating fingertips, while jazz, bluegrass and hot shot
hard rock players do it with a pick.  When I said that George did not have
the *kind* of chops to play that lick, I was referring to the two totally
different styles, his and that of the flamenco player on the Bungalow Bill
sample.  His right hand was not developed technically enough to do it.  His
shortest route there would be with a pick, but that's not what the player on
the sample used.  He used his fingers.  You have to in flamenco, otherwise
you couldn't perform the rasguedo techniques in the strumming sections of
flamenco dance music.  George would have to start from scratch there.  He
would still have a long way to go using a pick.

But George is a wonderful player.  There is nothing wrong with saying you
can't do something.  You can't master everything, and you don't have to.  Cut
him some slack!

To bring this full circle to XTC, let's use Andy and Greggsy as an example.
Andy is a very left hand oriented player, while Dave had far better control
with a pick.  That made them a good compliment to each other, and I think
that's what people have been missing on the AV albums.  If either of them
were to try the Bungalow Bill lick, I think:  Andy, no way Jose!   Dave, a
shot, but only with a pick.

Now I'm going to say something really outrageous.  (Lock & load your
flamethrowers!)  Besides George, here are some others I think could *not*
play that flamenco lick at the height of their abilities -
Clapton, Page, Hendrix, Beck, Blackmore, Zappa, Townsend, Lee, Perry, Trower,
Summers, SRV, Walsh, Baxter, Green, Taylor, etc. etc.   For the reasons I
gave above.  I'd bet $500 at the drop of a hat that they would agree to a
man, as well.  With no shame, either.  Apples & Oranges & Lemons.  (Oh my!)

Who could?  well, with a pick, players like DiMeola, McLaughlin, Morse and
fusion players in general;  possibly VanHalen, Iommi, and their spawn, the
Paganini's of metal such as Yngwie, Satriani, etc who devoted endless bedroom
hours with tabs and exercises for the right hand.
With the fingers, well, any top notch classical and/or flamenco player (with
years of practice and seasoning).  In the sixties rock world, the one who
would have had the best shot would have been Robbie Krieger, because he
studied classical and had a jump on the technique.  But he had other things
on his mind, like George did....

Now, after I've babbled on, go listen to it.  Pay attention to the speed, the
assurance and the articulation of every note with the right hand.  You'll see
the light.

Or better yet, go play an XTC record!  'Cause we're all light!  (I heard that

Tom "El Llama es un quadroped! " Kingston

"Always remember to look both ways
to please and thank you and curtsey twice
before you gore the sacred dinosaur"  - KG


End of Chalkhills Digest #6-247

Go back to the previous page.