Precedence: bulk
Subject: Chalkhills Digest #4-115

         Chalkhills Digest, Volume 4, Number 115

                   Monday, 20 July 1998

Today's Topics:

            RE: Another Satellite & time sigs
                   Re: Dear God(again)
                       Re: Dear God
                     Trace Confluence
           The world is full of angry young men
                   Idea for Box Set...
              Re: Barenaked Ladies like XTC
              Andy and Peter and the Letter
                    Hot button issues!
Re: Why don't atheists get upset when we say "There is a God"
               Dave's cut of the new album
             Re: Ghem Fleegba Modge Da Rempo
          Is this the Dawning of the Age of XTC?
                       Sweet? ME???
                  Re: Difficult Rhythms
                    You Are Forgiven!
                 MTV drops the ball again
                     Rhythm pedantry
                   Re: Dear Pumpkinhead



Okay, enough with the "Dear God" meta-discussion.  It's fine if y'all
want to discuss the content of the song, but Chalkhills is not a place
to discuss the overall topics of gods, religions, faiths and the sacred.
A few more postings on these will come out in the next issue of Chalkhills,
but after this issue I will reject any such postings.  Y'all should know
better by now.


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    The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors.

    Chalkhills is compiled using Digest 3.6 (John Relph <>).

You can read it in your bible / Or on the back of this record sleeve.


Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <>
From: bg769@lafn.ORG (Ian Dahlberg)
Subject: RE: Another Satellite & time sigs

     >Hoping a guitar-friendly musician here might be able to help me. What
>is the effect on the guitar on ANOTHER SATELLITE? I love the way it slowly
>opens up in everytime a chord is hit. SWOOOOOOSH!

        I'm sure other folks will respond to this as well but..

        The effect is that it's a sampled major chord from an electric
guitar, played down an octave on a keyboard.  I'm not sure if the whole
song was taken off the one guitar sample or if he played the whole thing in
and then took it down.   My guess is that it's just one chord sampled in,
and then the whole song played on keyboard.  You'll notice that the lower
sounding chords kind of open up slower than the higher ones.  Perty cool,

        Regarding English Round-'n'-round, it is most definitely in 5/4.
Although I'll have to consider "Burning in Optimism's Flames" in 4/4. The
main guitar riff is a figure that offsets itself, repeating every 3 bars,
creating 3 bar phrases.  Another odd-metered Andy oddity lies in "Let's
Make A Den" where, in the 1st 4 bars of the verse, he alternates between
4/4 and 3/4 but the bass carries on as if in 4/4 all the way through!  This
trick is also pulled in Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" (orchestral piece)
On-beats become off-beats and back again.  On "Rip Van Reuben", Andy slips
a few 5/8 bars in there, probably to prevent the song from "idling" too
much.  Great shtuff!

        I think the grand-daddy of all 5/4 tunes needs to be mentioned:
"Mission Impossible!"
                                                Ian D.


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:27:33 EDT
Subject: Re: Dear God(again)

  This subject seems to come up every few months as soon as we have enough
new members who don't know the subject's been beaten into the ground. Either
that, or some people enjoy pontificating. Regarding Mr O'Bannon's many
comments, I neither agree nor disagree with him since he's very respectfully
stating his position as a Christian, and I'm neither a Christian nor an
atheist nor an agnostic myself.(That leaves a lot of other possibilities,
though, doesn't it?)You all remind me of the blind men and the elephant; one
grabs the trunk and insists the elephant is long and tubular, one grabs a
leg and decides it's thick and cylindrical, and another is standing off
somewhere insisting there is no elephant, and still another is somewhere
else not sure if there is an elephant or not. You get the idea. Whatever
idea we have about whether or not there's a deity is according to our own
very limited perspective, which is equally limited whether or not we believe
in any deity or not. I'm more of a pantheist myself, which is literally the
opposite of an atheist; I believe in ALL gods, including no-god. All gods we
can conceive of exist in some form, it's just a matter of whether we like
the ones we know of.

  Some pagans I know refer to the Judeo-Christian god as "angry tribal
desert god," which is actually a pretty apt description if you have a
working familiarity with the Bible or the history of the period in which it
was written. I'm not a pagan myself, but I'm sympathetic to some aspects of
pagan theology and imagery; as I believe has been discussed before, so is
Andy, as evidenced by most of Skylarking, "Dear God" aside. Andy claims to
be an atheist, and he has that prerogative, but anyone who's in awe of the
power of nature and artistic beauty as he is is no atheist as far as I am
concerned. He can call himself one all he wants, but to take atheism to its
logical conclusion is to say that man somehow created nature or that it's
some sort of random accident. How can something as beautiful as a summer
sunset be a random accident? Nature, beauty, whatever, it's just God by
another name as far as I'm concerned. Of course, there's Buddhism, the one
world religion that's by nature atheist; it considers the very concept of
God irrelevant for the purpose of recognising what is as it is. That I can
understand. I invite all atheists to investigate Buddhism, in that case.



Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:55:49 -0400
From: Jefferson Ogata <>
Subject: Re: Dear God

Dear God is not at all an expression of AP's personal philosophy,
thank you very much. It is just a song about the Problem of Evil.
As those who've studied a small amount of theology know, the
Problem of Evil is the argument against God's existence along the
lines of, "If God created the Universe, why would he have put
murder, torture, mosquitoes, etc. in it? Therefore God does not
exist, QED."

The standard answer to the POE is, "What God did was give humans
free will, they exercise it, and so we have murder, torture,
etc., although there's really no excuse for mosquitoes." Genesis
1-3 is the primer on how free will allows humans to disobey God.

Much of the lyric in Dear God, e.g., "I *won't* believe..." is
free will talking. AP isn't taking sides on God's existence. Dear
God is just a song *about* the dilemma, and both sides are
presented in a nicely balanced way, complete with a paradoxical
twist (paradox -> logic -> science).

While Dear God is a trifle bombastic for my taste (also, it's
overplayed), it's a good example of what I like about XTC most:
they include the occasional song whose theme has some real meat
to it.

...Or so I prefer to believe.

Jefferson Ogata <>


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:04:55 -0400
From: Michael Versaci <>
Organization: Stormy Monday Enterprises
Subject: Trace Confluence


> I'm sorry, but what is Lennonish about either one? They all yell out
> McCartney if they even breathe or hint at Beatlesque!
>    I get the feeling the Lennon fan often resorts to such lengths to
> find lennon's trace influence.

Okay, let's review some lyrics, shall we?

Andy Partridge:
"Dear God"

"I don't believe in heaven or hell
 No saints no sinners no devil as well...
 If there's one thing I don't believe in - it's you"

John Lennon:

"I don't believe in Bible...
 I don't believe in Jesus" etc.


"Imagine there's no heaven...
 No hell below us, above us only sky

Andy Partridge
"The Loving"

"All around the world,
 Every boy and every girl need the loving"

"Merely A Man"

"I'm merely a man and I have nothing but love for you"

John Lennon
"All You Need is Love"

"Nothing you can do that can't be done...
 It's easy
All you need is love"

Colin Moulding
"King For A Day"

"You're only here once, and you gotta get it right
 (No time to fuss and fight)"

John Lennon
"We Can Work It Out"

(Granted, this one is by Lennon & McCartney, but it was coupling of two
song fragments, one by John and one by Paul. This is from the "John"

Need I go on?

Now, up in the Stratosphear, where they were deliberately paying tribute
/ satirizing psychedelic music, it seems to me that the boys leaned
toward (thanks Mr. Alkaline!) one "Dr. Winston O'boogie".

Colin Moulding

"Shiny Cage"

This song is obviously a direct re-working of "I'm Only Sleeping".

Andy Partridge

Andy sings it like John, in style, phrasing, timbre and attitude, in
addition to the obvious reference to "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds"

"Mole From The Ministry"

Lennon is all over this one!

To be fair, overall when XTC references the Beatles musically, the sound
and arrangement of the instruments are more often like Paul songs than
John songs, but all five Beatles, (George Martin) created that sound,
not Paul by himself.

The analogy between Lennon & McCartney and Partridge and Moulding is
inaccurate.  It seems that Colin's (and Andy's) bass style owe a debt to
Paul McCartney.  Andy's melodies are more similar to Paul's than
John's.  My position is not that "XTC is more John-like than Paul-like.
This would be silly and untrue.  But to say that "the Lennon fan often
resorts to such lengths to
find Lennon's trace influence" is a refutable statement.

XTC has undeniably been influenced by The Beatles, but I couldn't agree
that they are XTC's primary musical ancestors.  Like the Beatles, you
can hear many musical influences (and sometimes direct references) to
their respective heroes.  Again like the Beatles, XTC can take those
influences and references and turn them upside-down into something truly

Michael Versaci


Message-ID: <002901bdb24c$4d7035e0$235108c3@default>
From: "goldwing" <>
Subject: The world is full of angry young men
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:40:04 +0100

I`ve recently bought Rag & Bone Buffet and I`m really enjoying it but I cant
help noticing the similarity between `the world is full of angry young men`
and Steely Dan circa Katy Lied/Countdown to ecstasy.  I dont remember
reading that Colin or Andy said they were ever influenced by Steely Dan, but
then maybe I got it all wrong!

Dave Hall


Message-ID: <B9B4268C8F87D11195DC0000F840FABE0203C438@DUB-MSG-02>
From: Peter Fitzpatrick <>
Subject: Idea for Box Set...
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:09:16 +0100

(geddit ? "idea for box set" ??)

If we want to maximise the impact of our hard earned cash I propose the
following :
Since many USA based fans will want the upcoming BBC Boxed Set they will pay
silly prices for import copies...
Import copies in the US are not going to register in the US or UK charts...
Since the band could really use a chart placing (tricky enough for a box

Do any of our UK based Chalkheads know where chart-return music-stores are ?
If so : if any of you want to volunteer to purchase CDs on behalf of US
Chalkheads and mail them...
then surely the returns will register and hopefully create a bit of movement
for the Box Set in the UK charts ?

Anyone volunteering ??? I'd be prepared to buy from the UK if I thought it
would make a difference at all. (even though it'll be widely available here
in the metropolis that is Dublin..)



Message-Id: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:44:31 -0400
From: Adam Tyner <>
Subject: Re: Barenaked Ladies like XTC

>>Yes these boys are fans of XTC.

They certainly are.  Steven Page also said that Skylarking was one of his
favorite albums ever.

/=---------------- ----------------=\
The home of He-Man, "Weird Al", Yoo-hoo, Killer Tomatoes, and more!
   Demented music list admin           O-         MiSTie #67,326


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:06:02 -0700
From: Steven Graff <>
Organization: SLAPDASH
Subject: Andy and Peter and the Letter

Hey Chalksters,
    someone posted up a theory on the connections between Peter
Pumpkinhead and any martyr from the present or past:

If this is the accurate interpretation, it's simply a rewrite of what
the Bible has already declared to have actually happened 2,000 years ago
- the Messiah crucified in the name of religion. If Andy thinks it would
happen that way today (which it would), why hold that the Bible's
account from 2,000 years ago is false ("Father, Son and Holy Ghost is
just somebody's unholy hoax")? Andy's speculation about the fate of a
Messiah in "Pumpkinhead" suggests that the Bible's story is believable,
and yet ironically Andy dismisses this notion in "Dear God."

Bob O'Bannon

     Stop chasing your tale Bob. Peter Pumkinhead uses the form of song
to communicate a popular motif:
    Anyone who tries to make positive change in society  is always
challenged by people already in place in the power grid, for the sake of
their own security. Often times, this ends up with the people in power
somehow doing away with the newcomer, and maintaining the status quo.
All heroes stand on the side of virtue, and pursue virtuous goals in a
world of less-virtuous people. It is the power to change things for the
better that makes a hero a hero.
    I think this is the basis for many morality tales that probably
predate any of the books included in the Bible. It is this struggle for
virtue, I believe, the is a main thread in some of the Asian
philospohies and religions that sprang up, even before Judaism.
    Andy felt sory for the rotting jack o lantern he'd carved and stuck
on a fencepost, and wrote a song which gave the pumpkin (martyred for
the sake of Halloween) a life of it's own.

    These are all just songs by a band everyone. They touch us to
varying extents, but they are in the end great songs, with great music
and well thought out lyrics. No prophets here...not even the same
narrator per song. Just there for your enjoyment.

     English roundabout is synchopated 4/4 to me. Considering Terry's
limitations, it seems the most likely too.

     I prefer Let'em In (written in celebration of the U.S.
Bi-Centennial and performed in Wings Over America as such) to Silly Love

     Harrison Sherwood...your "No Language" dissection only makes the
song even MORE likeable. I wonder if Andy wrote music to the lyrics, or
vice versa, or a combo of the two (this is more difficult).

    Peace and Good fortune!

    Steven (truth is easier to come by than answers) Graff


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:17:08
From: Derek Miner <>
Subject: Hot button issues!

Hello, all...

In digest #4-114 Bob O'Bannon <> wrote:

>>>RE: Peterpumpkinhead
>I've heard this is related to JFK before, but do not see the connection
>at all.  I've always believed "PeterPumpkinhead" is a sort-of modern day
>Jesus Christ.  Kind-of a "this is what would happen if a messiah came
>today."  It seems Andy is taking a jab at all the organized religions,
>in effect, saying they would crucify him if he came today- in the name
>of religion of course.  Wow, isn't that a familiar tale my fellow
>If this is the accurate interpretation, it's simply a rewrite of what
>the Bible has already declared to have actually happened 2,000 years ago
>- the Messiah crucified in the name of religion. If Andy thinks it would
>happen that way today (which it would), why hold that the Bible's
>account from 2,000 years ago is false ("Father, Son and Holy Ghost is
>just somebody's unholy hoax")? Andy's speculation about the fate of a
>Messiah in "Pumpkinhead" suggests that the Bible's story is believable,
>and yet ironically Andy dismisses this notion in "Dear God."

As some have pointed out, Andy considers "Peter Pumpkinhead" to be a song
that fits all martyrs. So "Peter Pumpkinhead" could be Jesus Christ or John
F. Kennedy. What makes the song that way is the universal nature of the
theme. It just so happens that Jesus Christ and John F. Kennedy are both
considered to have been put down by the ruling order because of ideas
dangerous to that ruling order. And they're not the only ones,
either. Accepting the story of Jesus Christ for what it says does not
require one to believe in the Bible. You can relate to the themes of any
story/movie/play/novel/song without believing that the characters portrayed
actually existed.

And Harrison Sherwood <> went on to regale us with
the following (some was removed only due to space):

>Imprecise and unreliable figures of speech may very well be the language us
>humans are doomed to use when we try to tell each other how we feel, but
>it's also the province and playground and bread-and-butter of the
>artist--indeed, without this dependence on metaphor, there would _be_ no
>art. Andy _needs_ there to be No Language in Our Lungs. All
>creativity--artistic or otherwise--comes about as a result of exactly this
>human characteristic. OK, so he would have made this instrumental, but the
>wonderful paradox is, we _applaud and throw money_ when people come up with
>seven separate vivid metaphors within ten lines of lyric.
>Notice also the only two lines marked as "direct" (i.e., nonmetaphorical)
>above--take them out of the verse and read them together in sequence.
>Partridge is a fucking genius.

Man, I'm in awe... I could read this stuff all day long...

Incidentally, I never thanked Harrison for recommending I read "Revolution
In The Head" - a no-holds-barred longform criticism of the Beatles music,
lives and times. Originally, it was suggested to me as an aid in learning
about music theory through music familiar to me. I gave up on the theory,
but the criticism fascinated me. The ultimate conclusion of the book is
pretty bleak (about us, not the Beatles), but it's very much dead on. I'd in
turn recommend the book to anyone else here interested in The Beatles or
where Harrison picks up his voluminous knowledge of music.

and lastly,
Mike <> suggests:

> My point is that Dear God is just a song, and it's useless for us to argue
> whether or not Andy is an aetheist or whether he even believes in the words
> to his own song.  But it is obviously thought-provoking, nonetheless.

I, personally, can accept this point. What strikes me as thought-provoking
is what happens once the issue *becomes* what Andy believes. I think it's
been proven without a doubt that Andy has an issue with religion and tends
toward atheism. But some people just don't want to accept that and
*continue* to press the issue about Andy's beliefs, appearing to suggest
that he meant something other than what he actually said.

By dragging that point through here again, I hope I'm making Mike's point
clearer. Forget what Andy believes. If what Andy believes bothers you, it's
well beyond our control. This is probably the only thing I have to say about
the "Dear God" issue, other than I like the song.


Message-ID: <>
From: "Brent John Palmer" <>
Subject: Mummer
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:10:43 PDT

A couple of weeks ago, I special-ordered a copy of _Mummer_.  It's my
favourite XTC album, not to mention my favourite album of all time!  One
thing which I find incredibly perplexing is that Epic, who ditched them
in the States for being _truly_ alternative (on _Mummer_), are probably
now marketing Pearl Jam, silverchair, Rage Against the Machine, etc. as
"alternative rock".  IMHO, that is precisely the sort of thing which
makes "Funk Pop a Roll" all the more relevant!  It's very refreshing to
hear masterpieces such as "Human Alchemy", "Seagulls Screaming..." (from
_The Big Express_), and "Ballet for a Rainy Day/1000 Umbrellas"
(_Skylarking_), in stark contrast to the buzzsaw-guitar moshpit-fodder
that's been flung at us for more than five years!  (Thumbs up, also, to
TMBG, Radiohead, Tori Amos and others who have made the music scene
faily interesting through this otherwise musically dreary decade!)


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:52:10 -0700
From: Eric Rosen <>
Subject: Re: Why don't atheists get upset when we say "There is a God"

Hello Olof

I usually skip over Dear G-d threads when I peruse c-hills.  Not that it
disinterests me but the threads feel to me like a chicken and egg - type
frustration (regardless of one's philosophy, beliefs, attitudes, culture,
religion, gender, orientation, ethnicity  -- have i missed anything:?) so i let
'em ride.

Your post was refreshing because it was free from vitriol and focused on
what's really great about the song.  Every word uttered and sang on the
piece is truly heartfelt and the instrumetation always complements
perfectly, the meaning of the words sung at that moment.

I've always loved Deliver Me from the Elements.  The ending always seemed so
Revolver-esque which was mighty refreshing to these ears when all those goofy
pretty boy synthesizer bands of the day were so into their look and an
over-exploited hook.

My beliefs have been on both sides of the fence on the DG thread, depending
on what stage or phase of life I'm in.  I land on the non-atheistic side now
but back in the days of "18 months between XTC albums," I was just beginning
to question my atheism.  I could be wrong but that time in life could be
when many people are first finding their atheism.

I look forward to your web page.



Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:01:53 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <v03007800b1d6d53769f4@[]>
From: Mitch Friedman <>
Subject: Dave's cut of the new album

Dave told me that he decided he does not want any royalties or payment for
what he did on the new album(s) but will be receiving royalties from the
entire back catalog that he played on.


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:27:20 -0700
From: Eric Rosen <>
Subject: Re: Ghem Fleegba Modge Da Rempo

loved the post.

what does the subject translate to English as?


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:15:53 -0600
Subject: Is this the Dawning of the Age of XTC?

Greetings Chalkhillites!

Something fun and interesting (and more spiritually revealing than the
"Dear God" debates) would be to run individual astrological profiles
(and a group compatibility comparison) on Colin, Andy, Dave, and Terry.

Does anyone with ties to our boys from Swindon know the following on
each of them?  Exactness counts...

   - Birth Date
   - Birth Time  ** (important for precise info)
   - Birth Place  (Swindon, I assume)

If I can get the correct data, I can have an astrologer friend of mine
(20 years experience) who will run the charts and reveal the cosmic
forces behind such burning questions as...

    Why does XTC suffer the slings and arrow of outrageous fortune?
    What actually drove Dave to leave the band?
    Why does Colin put up with Andy?
    Will 1999 be the year of XTC?
    Why does Colin erase his demo tapes?
    Why can't the group find a decent manager?
    And more!!

- The GIngerbread Man


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:43:14 EDT
Subject: Sweet? ME???

Aww shucks Todd. :) I've been on this list for two years, and I guess in
that time I did something nobody thought I was capable of-I grew up.

Mike-Nah, stick to the patriarchal stuff. Men make me feel all warm and
fuzzy inside. (Especially a certain exiled, bearded guitar player.) :):):):)

Tis all for now,
XTC song of the day-I'll Set Myself On Fire
non XTC song-Fundies Never Have Fun On Sundays-Crash Test Dummies (Oops! I
said the forbidden name! Shame on me!)


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:44:37 -0400
From: Jefferson Ogata <>
Subject: Re: Difficult Rhythms (James Dignan) said:
> PS - in my head, I hear English roundabout as simply being a syncopated
> 4/4, but I'll go and have a closer listen tonight

That observation is what got me interested in XTC in the first place.
English Roundabout was the first XTC song I heard. Always being a nut
for odd meters I was seriously intrigued by the way they managed to
pull off a 5/4 song so smoothly that not only does it sound 4/4, it's
downright danceable. Interesting to watch people dance to that song,
because it sounds so natural, yet they get this look of gentle
confusion when they dance to it.

Also, James and others have provided a nice list of odd-meter tunes,
but I've seen no mention of Yes, who have used odd-meter parts
pretty much since the beginning of their career. Examples: Perpetual
Change parts in 5/4, Siberian Khatru parts in 15/8, Changes intro
alternating between 14/8 and 20/8 before dropping into a horribly
banal 4/4, et al.

Also it is worth mentioning that King Crimson is also King Oddmeter.
They go way beyond what most bands settle for on odd time. Take
apart several of the songs in Discipline and you'll find that they
are playing two meters at once, e.g. 16/8 and 15/8 simultaneously.
When the dropped beats in one guitar have added up to a full measure
(i.e. they sync up again), they switch to another meter. A similar
thing occurs on Thrak with 5/4 and 7/4 on top of one another. This
stuff is not for the faint of heart. I don't know of any other band
that does this, although Genesis are in the ballpark in parts of the
keyboard solos on The Cinema Show (4/4 over 7/4) and The Raven (4/4
over 9/4).

Getting back on the English Roundabout, I think Brian's reference
to Brubeck's Take Five is particularly insightful, as the
chromatically ascending bit at the end very much resembles the
rhythm and structure of the melody of Take Five.

Another XTC song worthy of metric mention is Rook, which sounds
on the face of it like 3/4, but turns out to be 9/8, as evidenced
by the interesting piano chord alternations in the fast-sounding
parts. Since the piano alternates between a chord and a single note
while the meter is odd, the onset of each measure precesses along
the piano part--a peculiar effect.

Also, there's a little meter jump in Blue Overall. The verse
lines are 4/4, 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 4/4. That little 3/4 in
the middle is a lot of fun.

Jefferson Ogata <>


Message-ID: <>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:39:59 EDT
Subject: RE:Sugarcubes

>The 'Cubes have also released a greatest hits album called
>"Contains Crossover Potential" (or something) -- does anyone know if it's
>generally available in the U.S.?

Yes, its out.  Saw it yesterday at a local record (err..CD) store.


Message-Id: <>
From: Joseph Ierano <>
Subject: tock
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 22:37:17 +03d00

Regarding the album "Tock":
Someone mentioned it was "xtc with a Californian accent"
Yes, Tock is about as similar to XTC as White Music is to Nonsuch.
(ie: sorry cant agree. I dont think Tock comes near any XTC disc)


Joseph J. Ierano B.Sc., D.C.



Subject: You Are Forgiven!
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:32:46 -0400
Message-ID: <01bdb322$18d4c860$>

Olof Hellman <> asked:
"Why don't atheists get upset when we say "There is a God""

Allow me to give you a non-believer's perspective on this.  And
remember, I can't speak for other atheists since by definition
we don't have a platform...

1.  As far as I'm concerned, nothing bad is going to happen to
you after you're dead no matter WHAT you say.  Therefore, I
feel no need to save your so-called soul.

2.  I'm not as concerned about converting you as you
are about us.  I have a "live and let live" attitude about
this stuff.  Believe whatever you want and leave me
the hell alone.  (use of the word "hell" is not meant to
convey a belief in the possibility of an unpleasant afterlife)

3.  "Atheist" is a name that YOU gave US.  (I think)  "We"
don't really need a name because we don't gather together
in organized groups to celebrate the non-existence of something.
Kind of pointless, wouldn't you think?

There's more, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.

Anyway, I have nothing against religious folks as long as they
don't put on their cheap suits and drag their poor* children to
my door at 8:30 AM on Saturday morning asking me if I've heard
the word of The Lord today and thrusting copies of The Watchtower
in my face.

[*Not money-poor, but doomed to be raised by clowns.]

XTC content?  Well on the Andy-Monkees connection, I remember
an article where Andy talked about how watching the Monkees made
him want to be in a band because they all got to live together in a
groovy pad with a cool car where you could slide down a firepole
in the morning and show up anywhere and sound great.
If I can find it, I'll scan it with the OCR and post it to the web page.
If the Monkees ever made another reunion album, I'd love for Andy
to write some songs for them.  I think it would be a match made in...
well, you know.  Almost slipped there!  But seriously, can you
imagne Mickey Dolenz singing Then She Appeared?  Davey singing
Vanishing Girl?  Think about it...

May Zarerquat the Omnipotent bless all of your crops and beasts.



Subject: MTV drops the ball again
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:37:05 -0400
Message-ID: <01bdb322$b39e5500$>

Watched MTV news 1515 or whatever they call it now, and they did
a whole show on new releases.  Before a commercial break, they
did a sort of countdown of groups who haven't released an album in
a long time, how long it's been, and when the new one's coming.
Guess who didn't get mentioned.


Message-Id: <l03130300b1d7db927b6c@[]>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:54:38 -0700
From: Dave Blackburn <>
Subject: Rhythm pedantry

Me again,
	Sorry to belabor the odd-meter thread but I'm a bit of a stickler
for this stuff and a self-confessed pedant too. Several posts in #114
responding to the odd meter thread give erroneous info, especially this one:

<off the top of my head:
* Money - Pink Floyd (7/8)
* Solsbury Hill - Peter Gabriel (7/8)
* All you need is love - Beatles (verse in 7/8)
* I Generate a Feeling - Pete Shelley (13/8)
* Living in the Past - Jethro Tull (5/4)
* Light Flight - Pentangle (alternating 5/8 amnd 7/8 with 3/4 bridge)
* sections of Something by the Beatles are in 2/4, 3/4 and 5/4 IIRC
* about 1/3 of the works of King Crimson (for example "Indiscipline", 5/4),
and acres of stuff by Genesis
* there is a Joe Jackson song off Blaze of Glory in 5/4 - the title eludes me
* for NZ music fans, Sneaky Feelings' "Walk to the square" is in 5/4>

	"Money" is in 5/4; "Solsbury Hill" and "All you need is Love"are in
7/4, not 7/8 (or it can be also thought of as alternating bars of 4/4 and
3/4). "English Roundabout" is emphatically in 5/4, not 5/8, even though the
tempo is brisk. Picking up the tempo does not change the unit of pulse to
8th notes. Now, some songs, "The Man who sailed around his Soul" in
particular, do something very neat. The bass riff plays a phrase in 7/4
(half note, half note, dotted quarter, dotted quarter) but the vocal melody
phrases in 7/8 (quarter, quarter, quarter, eighth) perfectly dividing the
7/4 bar in two. This is a far more sophisticated application of odd meter
than say "Money" which always feels like it has an extra beat glued on to
the end of an otherwise plain phrase.
	A fascinating song, long debated by musicologists, is "Yesterday".
The verses use a 7 bar form and yet there is no sense of anything being
truncated. As one professor put it: "where is the elision?" Sing the song
to yourself: you may never have noticed this unusual phenomemon, so smooth
is the combination of phrases. Andy Partridge is also a boundary pusher
when it comes to rhythm (and almost everything else). "Burning with
optimism's flames" sounds like it is in two different meters at once,
because it uses a technique called "hemiola". The rhythm guitar(s) are
mixed up front and play a steady stream of dotted quarter notes (aka
crotchets) which starts to establish an 'alternative pulse' in your brain.
"Wake Up", discussed long ago, utilises a similar clever polyrhythm between
the two guitars, to 'wrong foot' you for a while.
	All due respect to other Chalkers' ears; just wanted to correct
some misunderstandings while the thread is still going.

P.S regarding King Crimson and the "Discipline" album. Fripp was into
layering polyrhythms and phrase cycles at that time, a la Philip Glass, so
the underlying meter is less important than the way the cycles
overlap--sort of a "meet you in 13 bars when we all land on one" thing.

P.P.S Harrison's analysis of "No Language..." was great, most erudite, and
a lovely on-topic break from some of the recent threads.


Dave Blackburn  			Fallbrook, Ca


Message-Id: <v03007801b1d7c2227f56@[]>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:45:24 -0400
From: Curtiss Hammock <>
Subject: Re: Dear Pumpkinhead

Bob O'Bannon wrote:

> If this is the accurate interpretation, it's simply a rewrite of what
> the Bible has already declared to have actually happened 2,000 years ago
> - the Messiah crucified in the name of religion. If Andy thinks it would
> happen that way today (which it would), why hold that the Bible's
> account from 2,000 years ago is false ("Father, Son and Holy Ghost is
> just somebody's unholy hoax")? Andy's speculation about the fate of a
> Messiah in "Pumpkinhead" suggests that the Bible's story is believable,
> and yet ironically Andy dismisses this notion in "Dear God."

I think that Andy was trying to point out the hypocrisy of contemporary
religion. One can do that without believing in God. There's a fine SF book
called "The Day the Sun Stood Still," a collection of 4 novellas, each of
which asks, "what would humankind do if God's existence was proven?" Each
of them replied, basically, that the holy rollers wouldn't accept Him
because He didn't fit in with their preconceived notions of what He should
be. It is the athiests who accept the evidence, and the God whose existence
it proves.

As an athiest, myself, I see no contradictions in any of Andy's songs. Nor
do I have any problem with songs that portray a spiritual belief, as long
as it is as heart-felt as Andy's songs of disbelief. Jason Falkner (of the
Grays) has a beautiful song called "Don't Show Me Heaven." It's deeply
spiritual, and I find it very moving. The fact that I don't share Falkner's
beliefs in God and Heaven doesn't diminish my love of the song.


 Curtiss R. Hammock II                    Atlanta, GA, USA
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